Former Australian PM Malcolm Turnbull interview on 7.30 with Sarah Ferguson
-The frank and sobering appraisal and warnings about Trump every Australian needs to see (Ed.)
*This ABC interview with former Prime Minister Malcom Turnbull is reproduced and shared in the Public Interest
Sydney, 13 March,2025
SARAH FERGUSON, PRESENTER: Speaking of Donald Trump, the US President took to his preferred social media platform, Truth Social, to criticise former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull today.
The President said Mr Turnbull never understood what was going on in China and was (quote) “a weak and ineffective leader”. The post was provoked apparently by Mr Turnbull saying Donald Trump’s decisions and behaviour since taking office have benefited China’s Xi Jinping.
Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull joins me now.
Malcolm Turnbull, welcome. What is the purpose of calling out Donald Trump’s behaviour publicly?
MALCOLM TURNBULL, FORMER PRIME MINISTER: Well, it’s important that we are open to discussing these things. I mean, the reality is that Xi Jinping, China, will take advantage of Trump’s chaotic behaviour, and his harassing and bullying, seeking to extort allies, the way that he has damaged the Western alliance.
All of this erratic behaviour will be taken advantage of by China, because what China will do is they will say, they’ll be the opposite of Trump. Where Trump is erratic, they’ll be consistent. Where Trump is rude and abusive, as you saw in that tweet, they’ll be respectful.
WATCH HERE: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-03-10/former-pm-malcolm-turnbull-responds-to-donald/105034294
They’ll play a very different game to what they did in the first Trump administration. So, you know, look, he’s actively helping Putin in Ukraine, and perhaps not deliberately, but effectively he’s helping Xi Jinping.
SARAH FERGUSON: Is it your view that it reaches the level where Xi Jinping could, at some point, actually peel away friends of the US towards China? Could it reach that level?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, I think certainly, not a country like Australia, obviously, but certain treaty allies. But certainly, ASEAN, countries in Africa, in South America. Anywhere where there is a, you know, where people are trying to be friends with both sides, if Trump abuses them, seeks to bully them, puts crippling tariffs on them, they will naturally edge closer to China. Of course they will.
SARAH FERGUSON: There was nothing erratic in what you said, but you’re still making an argument publicly. Is it easier and better for Australia in this acute moment when the tariff decision is obviously being made if diplomatists are given the maximum opportunity to operate behind closed doors without your intervention?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: I never thought I’d have to defend free speech here on the 7.30 Report, and I’m glad that you’re a little bit embarrassed raising that with me, aren’t you.
SARAH FERGUSON: No, no, no, it’s just a question about the moment that we find ourselves in. So, I think what I’m asking is – what leads you to say it at this time? What is it that Trump is doing that has become so egregious that you have so speak out?
Photo from the Facebook account of fomer PM Malcolm Turnbull
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Look around us. The impact that Trump is having on the world, on the Western alliance, on markets, on our economies. I mean, these are matters that we have to talk about.
We cannot continue this bipartisan gas-lighting that is going on at the moment where there are these massive changes in Washington affecting us and the whole world.
I mean, look at the extraordinary treatment of Canada. Efforts to basically cripple Canada’s economy in order to bully them into becoming the 51st state. I mean, it is, this is, this is all unprecedented, but yet, if you look to our political leaders, there’s nothing wrong with AUKUS, everything is fine, the relationship is fine, nothing has changed. Well, it has changed.
SARAH FERGUSON: Let me come back to AUKUS in a moment, because the question, I suppose, goes to if you compare how former prime minister Trudeau, he stood up, he was very outspoken. Keir Starmer was more subtle. Is there room for both forms of expression at this time? Or is the only way now to call it out when you see it?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, I do not believe that you should give in to bullies, right. Now, what Trump’s, Trump wants people to suck up to him, and to be sycophantic. And I have dealt with Trump in the past. I mean, you know, the fact is I stood up to Trump and got him to do things he didn’t want to do, because I wasn’t being bullied by him.
Most of the people, pretty much all of the people I’ve seen, international leaders, that have sucked up to Trump and been sycophants, have been run over.
I mean, the reality is if you suck up to bullies, whether it is the global affairs, or in the playground, you just get more bullying. And unfortunately, you know, we are now seeing somebody that is utterly unconstrained and if the advice is to go and suck up to him, well, where does that get you?
I mean, are we just going to become just a conga line of sycophants creeping through the White House, paying homage to this guy and telling him he’s a genius. It’s ludicrous.
I mean, we’ve got to get, the leaders of other countries, particularly friendly countries, are among the few people that can speak truth to Trump, because he can’t sack them.
SARAH FERGUSON: What does it mean for Taiwan, for example? They have made a decision to put a huge amount more money into chip operations in the US. Is that a dangerous move for Taiwan?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, there’s two sides to that. I mean, there are people in Taiwan that would say, you know, we’ve got a silicon shield because if all the chip making is in Taiwan, the Americans can’t let China take us.
On the other hand, the Americans are saying, Trump in particular is saying, unless you invest more in the United States, we will put huge tariffs on the import of your chips from Taiwan.
I mean, ultimately, I don’t think, you had a clip of Bridge Colby earlier, as Bridge Colby said, he does not regard Taiwan as an existential issue for the United States. Trump has said on Bloomberg that he does not think that Taiwan is defensible.
So I think that if Taiwan is not able to defend itself, I don’t think that, I don’t think that Trump will go to war with China over Taiwan. I’m very confident of that but, he can be unpredictable.
SARAH FERGUSON: And just briefly, we are going to find out what the final decision is on the tariffs this week. You said when you came on last time, you thought essentially that the political debate was setting Anthony Albanese up to fail. Do you think the decision is already taken?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Look, the government is rinsing and repeating the arguments I used successfully in 2018 and they’re good argument, but I think that the situation has changed.
I think that the American, Trump in particular, regrets giving us an exemption, because then he had to give somebody else an exemption and somebody else, and before too long, too many countries had an exemption.
So, I’ve said from the outset, I think that it is more likely that they will say it’s on everybody, nothing personal, but it’s on everybody. And you know, there has been an attempt to set Albanese up to fail on something that he was most unlikely to succeed in.
And I’m just, I haven’t got any skin in this game, I’m just being frank and honest about the realities.
SARAH FERGUSON: Appreciate you coming in to talk about Donald Trump’s latest. Thank you.
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Thank you.
